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This is the
first of a pair of abridged transcripts from interviews by our editor-in-chief
Patrick Smith with the two leaders of rival factions of Zimbabwe’s opposition
Movement for Democratic Change. Coming soon, an interview with Welshman Ncube,
Zimbabwe’s trade & industry minister and leader of the MDC-N party.
Patrick Smith:
Has there been much progress on the reform of the Global Political Agreement
(GPA)?
Prime Minister
Morgan Tsvangirai: No, we have been talking about national security policy.
Up to now there’s not been any agreement. We hope to conclude on that. There is
a structure called the National Security Council which has been discussing these
security matters. But by and large, over a period, over the last six months, it
has become now imperative that we need to go deeper than just national security
policy. It involves realignment of these institutions in terms of the
multi-party democratic dispensation that we are trying to
create.
Have you been
able to push through much restructuring of the civil service since the Global
Political Agreement got off the ground?
Zimbabwe PM Morgan Tsvangirai in
contemplative mood in an interview at his home in Harare. Photo: Tsvangirayi
Mukwazhi for TAR
What about
security on the ground and the concern about the levels of
violence?
Yes, we are
expressing that. That matter is also getting the attention of the National
Security Council. But it would appear that there is a conflict between policy
and operational directives. In which case, the policy may say that these
institutions are non-partisan, but at an operational level, at various levels,
some of the security operatives have taken the law into their own hands
especially on perceived political opponents. Instead of working as a government.
That is causing a lot of problems - like the arrest of ministers some of which
was done not because it’s in the best interests of the
country.
What channels
are there to address that?
This is a
political challenge, it has nothing to do with what the law. It can only be
dealt with politically. There has to be political will on all parties, to desist
from those extreme measures. And to do anything that might undermine the
integrity of the Government of National Unity.
Can you raise
that at the National Security Council and what sort of response have you
had?
We await that
investigation, but we know what the conclusion would be. No one will be found
guilty.
When senior
military officers say they will never recognise an MDC government, how do you
react?
Why should it
concern me? When such statements are issued they’re against policy, and they are
against the accepted norm and standards of a military. How do you get a third
ranking, fourth ranking army brigadier making [a] statement? The question is not
an MDC or ZANU-PF government. The question is that to what extent are these
institutions loyal to the civilian authority, as represented by the mandate of
the people. If there’s no respect for that, then who are you despising? You’re
despising the will of the people…then where do you get your
legitimacy?
There is a
feeling of election fever in the country at the moment. What’s happening on the
part of ZANU-PF? Under your arrangement, can either one of you precipitate an
election, by pulling out of the GPA?
Well, if there is
a collapse of government, it will precipitate action that may lead to collapse
of the GNU [Government of National Unity], it may lead to an election. It’s not
automatic, you have to go to Parliament and repeal all those laws that created
the GNU and the conditions for coalition.
That’s why, in
terms of some of the rhetoric from ZANU-PF, in substance it does not mean
anything. Because if you say we’re going to have an election this year when you
know that to have an election there are certain processes that have to be
undertaken.
Unless they are
going to do something unilaterally and illegally. Only then can the role of the
MDC be totally disregarded...Depending on the circumstances we’re
not going to allow a situation where ZANU-PF defines how election conditions
should be. It has to be conditions that are acceptable to all
parties.
Would that
include an electoral commission that meets your
requirements?
Yes, but there’s a
new constitution, there’s a referendum, there’s implementation of that
constitution, and maybe there’s a need to look at the Zimbabwe Electoral
Commission, its independence, the registration of voters, including voters in
the diaspora in the region. Then of course it has to involve the issue of
delineation of the constituencies. Above all, the election must be conducted in
a free and fair environment, not in a violent
environment.
Do you think
the Southern African Development Community (SADC) are taking a tougher line with
Zimbabwe?
We have noticed a
significant recognition of not allowing ZANU-PF to get away with everything. And
that they needed to asset themselves as SADC in terms of what shall be done and
what shall not be done. So I think that assertiveness has helped to indicate a
shift you have indicated.
What do you
want to see happen at the next SADC meeting in Angola in
August?
I’m sure that the
next SADC Summit will push Zimbabwe to adopt a roadmap, with full timelines. The
negotiators are negotiating that and whilst that is being finalised the report
is going to be tabled for SADC to adopt. We should by then [the summit] have an
indication when elections are possible.
The Finance
Minister at the African Development Bank meeting said it could be another year
at least. Does that sound realistic?
I’ve always said
that I don’t think that we could have an election I would say the first quarter,
now I’ve had to revise it to almost second quarter of next year. At the
earliest.
On the
constitution, how much agreement is there between yourselves and ZANU-PF and all
the other parties on the fundamental changes to be
made?
I’m sure that on
the fundamental issues about 60-70% of them are straightforward, there is
consensus. But we differ slightly on other fundamental issues. But those are not
constitutional disputes. There are disputes around land, we are pushing for a
Land Commission and a Land Act. An independent Land Commission, which will have
to rationalise the multiple farm ownership that has been the result of this
haphazard farm land reform that has taken place. They are pushing for long term
leases.
There is a whole
dispute around capital punishment. We don’t believe in it but ZANU-PF do. I’ve
not drawn any particular list [of the offences] but I think they range from
scolding the president, to all ridiculous levels.
What about
policy to freedom of expression, media
organisation?
That will be
contained in the Bill of Rights and I think that people are straightforward on
that. Then there’s a dispute around an Executive President, and Executive Prime
Minister, mostly interpreted through the current existence of the government, in
which you have a President and a Prime Minister. So depending on who you talk
to, it may be an interpretation, is this working or is this not working. I think
everyone agrees that whether you have an executive or ceremonial resident, there
have to be time limits.
Do you think
the idea of sharing power between a President and a Prime Minister
works?
The French have
tried it. To me, at the end of the day, it doesn’t matter where you place your
executive authority. The person must have executive authority, but cannot abuse
it without being answerable to some check. In this case parliament and the
judiciary will be very important institutions of state to counter the excess
executive power.
Do you think
that going into a coalition was worth it?
I think
essentially it was a good decision. The country was on the precipice and I think
across the political divide this inclusive government has the support of the
people. It was good to have a transitional arrangement but then extending it
beyond two years opened the inclusive government to attack, because of lack of
delivery. It was never meant to be a delivery instrument anyway. It was meant to
contain a deteriorating situation on the economy, and on certain reforms that
were necessary, and then to go to a legitimate
election.
Now, you can see,
even in the last six months, that the frustration expresses itself in the
various discord in the government. So the longer we extend the transitional
government the more we are undermining whatever good the transitional government
may have achieved. Which is quite substantive, quite notable progress has been
made. But when people start talking about jobs and economic growth, then the
conflict, in terms of policy conflict in the inclusive government, undermines
the confidence in the inclusive government. It undermines investment and growth
potential.
So like I say, I
think the transitional government has overstayed its welcome. I think two years
would have been the envisaged end of it. But because of these steps it may go
beyond the envisaged two years to three years.
So if you’re
under pressure to deliver and you’ve have problems like the President promising
the civil service a hike in salary despite the lack of resources, does it become
a political issue?
It becomes a very
constraining factor, in which from the same government you are sending different
messages. And the only people who are caught in-between are the poor civil
servants. In the end, the fact is let’s get the money, get us the diamond
mining, let us remove excess labour. Then we were able to give the Minister of
Finance room to manoeuvre; it’s simple. But some people like to twist and like
to apply pressure on the Minister of Finance as if he’s refusing the money. And
yet he’s not.
Following the
violence in 2008 after the presidential elections, how is the country's
morale?
One thing I can
tell you is that no one wants to go back to 2008. Across the political divide,
people can say yes, we don’t believe the inclusive government has delivered to
our expectation. But certainly we cannot go back to
2008.
There has been
violence in some areas of the country, are asking SADC to send monitors
there?
SADC now is going
to send a team, which is going to work with JOMIC, the monitoring committee, and
any incident of violence or abuse will be monitored by that. They [JOMIC] are
intervening and are going there to investigate. I’m sure that with the SADC
presence they may even do more. And that’s the whole intention, to mitigate
those excesses.
What are the
prospects of the MDC reuniting?
There’s always
been a prospect of uniting all progressive anti-ZANU-PF formations. But we have
tried it before; there were so many excuses and demands that we found
unacceptable. Uniting the MDC against ZANU-PF isn’t a panacea for the victory
for democratic movement. What is important is that there could be a basis of
working together, which we would encourage. We have been very open for a long
time.
I want to tell you
that we won the last election, even if there was a split in the MDC. So it’s not
an excuse that uniting the two formations is necessarily equals the victory. We
can still win, we have the support of the people. And I think the people are not
deceived by these superficial divisions that sometimes are based on individual,
selfish interests and not on the collective good.
If you were to
ask the smaller MDC if we differ in any policy framework you would find that
there is not a huge difference. To me it will always be essential to
have peace talks; at the appropriate time we will talk to them and find out
whether they still feel that they can go it alone. Now they have retreated to be
regional party; so I don’t think that is healthy for uniting the people. So we
will have to put that into consideration, as to whether they want to be a
national flag or.
The democratic
movement is not something that is just confined to the MDC. You have the whole
civil society there; people who want to see democracy restored in the country.
We have been working very hard to democratise the country and we have champions
there, we can work with them.
Is it possible
that you could co-operate with Dumiso Dabengwa’s organisation [Zimbabwe African
People's Union] and Simba Makoni's party [Mavambo Dawn
Kusile]?
We have always
said that we can cooperate with those political formations because they want
what we’re also fighting for. There’s no fundamental difference except maybe
personalities.
There is a lot
of speculation about President Mugabe's health. How serious do you think the
problem is?
President Mugabe’s
health is a matter of national concern. He’s not getting any younger. But I
think the biggest failing is not about his health, it’s about a clear succession
plan within ZANU-PF. That is the crisis. Because if there was a clear succession
plan there would be no worry. People die, they know that. But if he leaves it in
a political vacuum it then creates problems for the country. So that is the
concern. His health for a man of his age fluctuates. There are days when he is
strong, there are days when he also is not.
Would you want
to running a country when you are 87?
Certainly not. I’d
rather be playing with my grandchildren and doing what is best in the last
remaining days of my life. Look, it’s his choice, but I think it’s an
ill-advised choice. There are moments when he could have ran on legacy. Now he’s
eroding some of the positive aspects of his legacy. And that to me is one that
is worrying- to the extent that the country’s future is held to ransom by one
individual, that it undermines confidence in the
country.
Have you spoken
to President Mugabe about his future and is there a risk of chaos if he suddenly
leaves power?
Yes, I’ve talked
to him. His excuse is that he needs to make sure his party is strong, but he’s
also worried about the degree of deep divisions, irreconcilable divisions,
within his own party. So that in itself is a matter of
concern.
There are
constitutional measures, the vice-president takes over for a while, then we go
to an election. That is the constitutional position. I can’t foresee any
situation in which there would be any measures to try to undermine
that.
There will not be
any constitutional crisis, because there is a constitution that takes care of
that eventuality.
People say if
you mobilised your support after the 2002 elections and went on the streets,
you’d be now sitting on your legacy for ten years of a presidency. What do you
say to that?
That’s just an
armchair criticism. Circumstances dictate the behaviour of any particular
situation. I think that at that time, ZANU-PF was not ready to transfer power. I
think the transition has given them some degree of confidence that there can be
a future beyond just being in power. So the circumstances were
different.
I think the time
has been well spent. Can you imagine that ZANU-PF and the MDC would sit down in
the Cabinet and talk about this national programmes before? The only thing is
that it needs to be transcended outside the Cabinet camaraderie into the
structures outside, which then creates this competitive spirit, sometimes that
is associated with elections.
So I think the
country has gone through the soft landing process. And I have no doubt that
putting people on the streets may have won us that victory but it would have
been bloodshed.
What is your
response to the claims made by ZANU-PF that the MDC are
western-backed?
That’s just
propaganda. The crisis in this country has nothing to do with Western influence.
We just happen to be an alternative to them. They put a flag, a nationalist
flag, to say "we are more nationalistic than these people". But what kept on
surprising them is that the party that they were accusing of being Western
backed and being a puppet, is the one that has got the support of the majority
of the people.
In spite of the
beatings and violence and killings that have taken place, the people still are
hanging on in confidence in the MDC. But now everyone realises that the crisis
in Zimbabwe is nothing to do with white or black, it is everything to do with
misgovernance and abuse of the rule of law. That’s what it is all
about.
When we won the
election in March 2008, they [other African leaders] were convinced that we had
won and that’s why they said they couldn’t recognise what Mugabe had done in
June 2008.
Since you
decided not to take your battle onto the streets after the 2002 elections you
have been a stronger defender of constitutional politics in Zimbabwe. Do you
think it's worked?
It's been an
extraordinary path, I must say, because in Africa every conflict must end up
with bloodshed. We have chosen the non-violent route. It’s quite
uncharacteristic of all changes in Africa. So if we succeed maybe we will have
set a precedent that you can still have change without necessarily shedding
blood. It’s very difficult.
Where do you
want Zimbabwe to be in five years time?
I’m hoping that we
will look back over the last ten years and say it was a wasted opportunity. I
think in five years time we should be in the reconstruction phase. The agenda
for Zimbabwe is the recapitalisation agenda, the reconstruction agenda, that’s
the future.
Democratic rule
would be one of the yardsticks. Have we improved the lives of people according
to their aspirations or have we also descended into the same power abuses that
ZANU-PF has been characterised by for the last 20, 30
years.
I think we [MDC]
have enough checks and balances. I think we have built in sufficient protection
against abuses by any individual.
If you win the
next presidential elections how will you deal with the opposition of the
military and intelligence chiefs?
At this stage it’s
a very delicate subject. We need to balance between the fears of the
perpetrators of violence that has caused traumatic experiences in this country
for the last 30 years. And the anxiety and the concerns of the victims, who have
been at the exposure of this. So I think you need to navigate through those
concerns.
I think the
international community will be on the side of the people. They’ll be on the
side of the people. They will give legitimacy to any government that is elected
freely and fairly. I’m sure that there will be massive support to that new
dispensation.
I think, to be
honest, there will be a need to have another post-transition transition. We
don't want to go into a coalition again. Then that undermines the thrust of the
Party and its philosophy. But maybe find measures just temporarily to bridge the
divide.
An edited version of this interview was
published in the August-September 2011 edition of The Africa Report. For more on
the battle over setting an election date, read
the introduction to our country focus on Zimbabwe.
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ICC chief executive Haroon Lorgat (centre) was present for Zimbabwe's historic
return to Test cricket
