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THE WEDNESDAY
WATCH
Analysis and Commentary from UN
Watch in Geneva
7 December
2005
Issue
137
__________________
CNN Debate: Should Abusive Regimes
Sit on the UN Human Rights Council?
Following is the transcript of a
debate on CNN International’s “Diplomatic License” program, as first aired
globally on December 2, 2005. Hosted by CNN’s Richard Roth, the debate featured
Hillel Neuer, UN Watch Executive Director, and Boniface Chidyausiku, Zimbabwe’s
Ambassador to the UN.
Click
Here To See 10-Minute Video Segment
RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: Critics say the
once lauded now derided United Nations Human Rights Commission is a human rights
violation on its own, but how would you revamp this 53 nation group? Welcome to
DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth.
The United Nations overall agrees
some form of change is needed, but once again the larger 191 country membership
is wrestling with the formula. This week, closed door debate on solutions began.
It's not going to be easy. At the heart of the issue: which country should sit
on the new human rights panel and should their own human rights record be used
as criteria for membership.
ROTH: The United States is a strong proponent
of keeping certain countries with poor human rights records according to
Washington off any new human rights monitoring panel. The United States thinks
the pace of negotiating is bogging down.
(BEGIN
VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: We are not making
progress, adequate progress, to abolish the existing Human Rights Commission and
establish a reform body and I'm quite concerned that we won't make it by the end
of the year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: That was Ambassador Bolton.
Last week, the talks continued. One example where the dispute rages is Zimbabwe.
Many U.N. members say the nation is violating its own citizens’ human rights.
But the African nation thinks these are distortions overplaying civil rights
while downplaying economic, social and cultural rights.
(BEGIN VIDEO
CLIP)
ROBERT MUGABE, ZIMBABWEAN PRES.: The whole human rights agenda
instead of being a cooperative exercise has degenerated into a Western- managed
kangaroo court, always looking out for criminals, as they call them, among
developing countries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Zimbabwe currently
is a member of the U.N. Human Rights Commission, something the U.S. points to as
a reason the United Nations is in need of reform. We're pleased to welcome here
in the studio Zimbabwe's United Nations Ambassador, Boniface Chidyausiku. And
also with us, Hillel Neuer, the director of a group called U.N. Watch, a
Geneva-based NGO that watches the United Nations. Hillel, what's the latest on
the fight for a new Human Rights Commission? What's really going on behind
closed doors?
HILLEL NEUER, U.N. WATCH: Well, Richard, the world needs a
credible U.N. body that will be a voice for victims of human rights violations,
that will make a difference for women subjected to inequality and violence, to
victims of state repression, censorship, torture. Kofi Annan has said the Human
Rights Commission has failed. Now is our chance to reshape it into a new council
that will be that voice.
ROTH: Zimbabwe is on the current Human Rights
Commission. Is that acceptable to your organization?
NEUER: No — it's
abysmal. Composition of the new council is the main critical element and we need
to support Kofi Annan, who said that we need members who have a, quote, "solid
record of commitment to the highest human rights standards." Until now, and he
said it, we've had politicization, selectivity, countries joining not to promote
human rights but to shield their own records of abuse. Zimbabwe is one of those
countries.
ROTH: Ambassador Chidyausiku, thank you for coming here not
just to talk about your country but the whole Commission, but while we're
talking about Zimbabwe, what's your response?
BONIFACE CHIDYAUSIKU,
ZIMBABWEAN AMB. TO U.N.: Well, Zimbabwe in terms of its human rights record, I
don't think is an exception in terms of observing human rights. You have
countries like the United States, who have been on the Human Rights Commission
for a long time, they have a sordid record on human rights and no one talks
about it and we wonder why Zimbabwe, why not the United States. We don't have
any detainees in Guantanamo Bay. Why is that not an issue in terms of human
rights?
ROTH: Zimbabwe and other countries, do they feel that the United
States is putting undue pressure on the United Nations to create these reforms
so that the organization follows Washington's commands?
CHIDYAUSIKU: The
United Nations is an intergovernmental organization made up of 191 members. And
the United States happens to be one of those 191 members. Whatever direction the
United Nations will take will have to be determined by the member states, not by
one member state.
NEUER: The assertion that Zimbabwe is entitled to be on
the Human Rights Commission is ridiculous. There are human rights violations
everywhere. What's good for the goose is good for the gander: Western nations
should be scrutinized as well. But Zimbabwe is a place where there has been
destruction of homes of 700,000 people, a country that was the breadbasket of
Africa, there are now 4 million people who need food aid. Suppression of
journalists, closing down of newspapers, prosecuting opposition members. And the
notion that that country is equal to every other country is sheer moral
irrelativism, and the United Nations was founded on moral clarity.
CHIDYAUSIKU: When one looks at Zimbabwe.
ROTH: And you can look
at each other, by the way, while we're looking at Zimbabwe.
CHIDYAUSIKU:
Sure. When one looks at Zimbabwe, just go on the Internet today and see what
type of news comes from Zimbabwe. We have independent newspapers that are
operating in Zimbabwe. They report freely and are not being prosecuted. You go
on the Internet today, you find the "Independent Standard," the "Financial
Gazette."
NEUER: That's not what journalists are saying. Independent
human rights experts have confirmed that there has been enormous suppression of
journalism, closure of newspapers, these are facts, and this is a place where
NGOs are persecuted under law, do not have the right to freely associate. There
are no fair elections. I mean, Zimbabwe's record is abysmal. And, you know, we
just had a report by Human Rights Watch saying that the government is
obstructing aid to the victims whose houses and livelihoods were destroyed,
700,000 people. They don't have shelter, they don't have food, they don't have
sanitation.
ROTH: Jan Egeland, the chief humanitarian man for the United
Nations, is going to go to Zimbabwe soon. Go ahead.
CHIDYAUSIKU: You
know, you cannot make an analysis of a country based in Geneva. You're not on
the ground. You get your information from news reports. People who are being
paid to say -- to paint certain pictures and to make very factual reports that
is not correct. At the present moment, we have Egeland going to Zimbabwe, to go
and see for himself, to see the 700,000 that you're talking about, whether they
in reality -- they are not there. Even when Tibaijuka entered Zimbabwe, she did
not even see those 700,000.
ROTH: Tibaijuka is the U.N. habitat director,
whose report was quite critical of your country.
CHIDYAUSIKU: Sure. But
that 700,000, it's a fiction.
ROTH: It was Operation Restore Order,
right? That's what it was called.
NEUER: It's confirmed by every
independent human rights organization, by the United Nations, and, you know,
this attempt by Robert Mugabe to paint this as an imperial plot, which is a
consistent theme, is ridiculous. Anna Tibaijuka, Kofi Annan's envoy, neither her
nor Kofi Annan are part of any Western plot. Look, you know, the regimes say
one thing but the people in Zimbabwe say something else and the NGOs from that
region say that we want the governments to be held accountable.
ROTH:
What's wrong with countries being chosen for the new human rights panel based
upon their records? And how do you determine that?
CHIDYAUSIKU: OK. Our
view -- every member of the United Nations has a right to sit on any body of the
United Nations. We don't want a duplicate of a new Security Council or a club,
where a few select individuals with the resources can sit on the council and
keep out people that are not seen as being friendly. This is our argument. We
don't want a human rights council where other members of the United Nations, who
are members of a intergovernmental organization, to be banned from that type
of.
ROTH: But you know there is damage being done to the organization by
countries that people accuse of human rights violation of sitting in judgment of
others. It's not just Zimbabwe people are talking about.
CHIDYAUSIKU:
Can we say, if we want to have certain qualifications for people who should sit
on the Human Rights Commission, can we say people who have used the atomic bomb
on a country?
ROTH: But that's a different situation? We're not
facing.
CHIDYAUSIKU: We are saying, can we come up with qualifications?
Where would we stop in qualifying members? Who will determine those
qualifications?
ROTH: So, Hillel, what is the solution? You're going to
hear this inside the United Nations; 191 countries, who gets to decide who is a
violator and who gets to judge?
NEUER: Richard, there is no magic
solution, but let's recognize the facts and let's support Kofi Annan, who said
that we basically have the fox guarding the chickens and it hasn't worked. We've
had Cuba, we've had Libya as chair, we've had a situation where Sudan, which is
committing mass rape, killings, displacement, affecting hundreds of thousands of
people, is automatically reelected on the commission.
ROTH: Sudan is
going to lead the African Union.
NEUER: Where does it end? There is a way
to draw the line. There is no automatic criteria. There are proposals. Some
propose those countries under measures -- under chapter 7 of the charter, be
disqualified.
ROTH: What should Zimbabwe do to be worthy of sitting, in
your view, on a revamped commission?
NEUER: Well, first of all,
Zimbabwe's got to begin respecting the U.N. charter, the universal declaration
of human rights, from A to Z. But just, you know, Richard —
ROTH: We only
have less than a minute.
NEUER: The General Assembly members will have to
be accountable for their votes. If they vote for a country, they're going to
have to explain to the United Nations and to their population why they voted for
a given country and that country has to give forth a platform of its commitment
to human rights and what it's going to achieve.
ROTH: The final word --
Ambassador.
CHIDYAUSIKU: As a member of the United Nations, every member
has a right to appear or to serve on the Human Rights Commission. In terms of
qualifications, there is no country that has a clean record, which can say that,
you know -- which can sit in judgment. For example, how many people are dying
in Iraq on a daily basis because of the United States? Why hasn't anybody
queried why the United States is on the Human Rights Commission
today?
NEUER: Every country can be scrutinized, but the notion that every
country should sit in judgment on others has failed. Kofi Annan has said it's
failed and it's casting a shadow on the reputation of the United Nations as a
whole.
CHIDYAUSIKU: The British government has just been trying to pass
legislation in the United Kingdom, and even their record in Iraq.
NEUER:
Every country should be scrutinized equally and your country should be forced to
present what its commitment is to human rights and to defend its record and be
accountable to somebody.
CHIDYAUSIKU: We agree, everybody should be
accountable, not just Zimbabwe. Every country.
ROTH: All right, now
you're seeing why nobody expects an agreement by the end of this year, and we'll
see what happens in the new year.
Hillel Neuer, of U.N. Watch, based in
Geneva, thank you. And Ambassador Boniface Chidyausiku, of Zimbabwe, a U.N.
ambassador, you were formerly posted in Angola, right, and in China, I
think?
CHIDYAUSIKU: And in Geneva.
ROTH: And Geneva. You have
something in common. Thanks very much for debating here on DIPLOMATIC LICENSE
on human rights.
CLICK
HERE TO SEE THE 10-MINUTE VIDEO SEGMENT
(http://www.unwatch.org/Neuer_Vs._ZimbabweAmbassador_CNN_Diplomatic_License.wmv
)
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