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BROADCAST: 19 February 2010
See part one of
this debate
VIOLET GONDA: Welcome to the final part of the debate on the
new Empowerment and Indigenisation regulations recently passed by the
government. My guests are businessman Mutumwa Mawere, economist Daniel Ndlela,
the President of the Affirmative Action Group Supa Mandiwanzira and journalist
Peta Thornycroft. Supa picks up from where the discussion ended last week with
Mutumwa saying Zimbabwe needs to generate employment and encourage the masses of
people who left the country to return – instead of introducing legislation that
will add a significant burden to established businesses.
SUPA MANDIWANZIRA: First of all I don’t buy this argument
that Zimbabweans are desperate to be empowered by jobs. I think that as
Zimbabweans we have come a long way as a people to realise that jobs will not
take us anywhere, we now must own our own resources and then we must control our
own destiny. I do not speak on behalf of the Zimbabwe government or any other
party except the Affirmative Action Group which represents the interests of
those that want to get into the mainstream of the economy and not be relegated
in very Mickey Mouse kind of businesses like selling at flea markets and stuff
like that.
Let me tell you Violet, the fact of the matter is this, that for instance I’m
aware that at Kamativi Tin Mine a lot of that tin was mined and was used to make
arms during the Second World War but I can tell you that today if you go to
Kamativi you will see some of the poorest of Zimbabweans. Why has that happened?
It is simply because there was nobody else in the company that exploited those
resources who was Zimbabwean or who was from Kamativi - who ensured that post
this mine we will eventually have another life that is supported by other
infrastructure that we have to build now, and we have many examples. I’ll not
mention a platinum, a multi-national company that operates in Zimbabwe that has
got platinum concessions. When a year or two ago the Zimbabwe government, before
the inclusive government, wanted to take a certain chunk of that platinum so
they could do a trade deal with China . That company requested that they be paid
150 million US dollars and this is an asset that they obtained simply by getting
a Mining Commissioner’s stamp. They never spent a cent in terms of that asset.
If they spent a cent, it was merely on exploration, which of course they’ve
already recovered by the mining operations they’ve been undertaking. But to give
up a certain portion of their platinum mining block, which they were not
utilising, they wanted 150 million US dollars.
Now our argument, which is supported by this Law and Regulation, is that you
must now allow the indigenous people to be part of the ownership, to have 51%
and they determine how these things are happening and what is remaining in the
country. We have nothing to show for all the gold, all the silver, and all the
nickel that has been exploited out of this country by the multi-nationals. If
you drive to some of these mines, and I’m talking from practical experience, the
roads are so terrible and yet significant resources have been exploited.
So at the end of the day, we must acknowledge that it is important to have
significant ownership of businesses in Zimbabwe especially some of these that
relate to exploiting our natural resources in the hands of the locals. The
Zimbabweans in the Diaspora, three million of them as Mutumwa is saying, they
will need to come back here, not to come and be employed again. They’ve been
employed elsewhere, they’ve worked hard enough, they must now come and own
businesses, this is their opportunity. And of all things, I have not heard any
one foreign investor issue a statement that this is not good. What I’ve heard
are Zimbabweans who purport to represent foreign investors who say this will
scare away investment. Let the foreign investors speak for themselves. As far as
we are concerned as the AAG, this is fantastic, this is the best thing that has
ever happened after Independence in 1980.
GONDA: I’d like to…
PETA THORNYCROFT: Well actually…
GONDA: Yes Peta?
THORNYCROFT: Sorry Violet, we got a foreign investor, Rio
Tinto, we interviewed them in London about these regulations and I know that
they’ve been talking about a massive expansion, the bottom line on that
expansion is an initial investment of 200 million because it is quite a small
mine and this certainly frightened them off, certainly.
MANDIWANZIRA: Peta, Peta, I want you to mark my words. Rio
Tinto will remain in this country, Rio Tinto will remain to invest in that 200
million even under the current circumstances because we have an asset that they
want - because it’s an asset they will make profit out of. I can tell you, even
at the height of Zimbabwe ’s problems, companies like Zimplats were announcing
putting 400 million dollars into this market. They shrugged off resistance by
foreign governments to say don’t go into Zimbabwe ; they simply said we are
doing business. Now if it makes sense for Rio Tinto or for Zimplats, for any
other to say I will still go into Zimbabwe , I can sell my 51% at market value
and still continue to make money, they will stay in this market and mark my
words – they are going to stay in this market.
GONDA: Peta?
THORNYCROFT: There was a very long struggle between Zimplats
and Gideon Gono at the Reserve Bank, a long struggle; it went over about three
years. As far as I can remember, when they were being summoned to the 22 nd
floor of the RBZ, where they were being told that they now had to bank locally,
when they had a signed agreement of 20 years previously - signed by the then
Minister Edison Zvobgo, to allow them to have their off shore banking because
they needed to spend these billions of dollars on imports. They couldn’t have it
in Zimbabwe because nobody trusted putting your money in Zimbabwe . There were
years of those struggles. It ended up OK, from what I gather, and whenever we
talk about mining we just need to remember that there is enormous money that has
to be invested in mining over a certain payback time over some years, and it
takes years and years. So for a company to go and invest it has to be extremely
sure and you can see what’s happened in Katanga in the last couple of years. You
had an enormous boom, it was also to do with the prices - but as they got less
and less sure about more and more government taking over percentage of their
companies, you’ve now reduced from about 70 mining companies operational in
Katanga, say three years ago when I was going there, down to two or three that
have survived. And those are the very biggest in the world and they’re extremely
worried.
MANDIWANZIRA: Violet, let me tell you, if you speak to
Zimbabwe ’s Finance Minister today, he will tell you that he is not happy at all
that the mining industry in this country contributes only 4% to Gross Domestic
Product but if you look at the kind of profits they are making, you cannot
correlate the two. That’s one; Secondly Peta helps my argument. You have
international companies, multi-nationals operating in Zimbabwe, 100% foreign
owned, they choose to bank their money outside Zimbabwe so even where they were
banking locally and others can borrow that money to sustain their business so we
can deal with the liquidity crisis in this country, they choose to bank this
money in foreign banks because they don’t trust this market but they trust
taking out the assets of Zimbabweans. And that is where we are saying it is
absolutely wrong for you to come and exploit, even just ensuring that the
Zimbabwean banks benefit from your deposits and continue to do business to lend
and everything, you still don’t even want to do that, you want to bank that
money in foreign banks which do not benefit anyone, so we are simply saying if
you… (interrupted)
THORNYCROFT: But the Reserve Bank used to steal their
money….
MANDIWANZIRA: …have indigenous people owning these
businesses, 51%. Decisions will be made who benefit not just themselves but
Zimbabweans at large.
THORNYCROFT: Supa, the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe over the
last five years has been dipping itself into peoples’ foreign currency accounts,
not individuals but companies, they’ve been dipping into foreign currency
accounts and helping themselves to it and then using it in the market for
whatever reason and those companies haven’t got payback. Think of what happened
to the gold mines in the last five years, the few that survived. The problem is
Zimbabwe has a very bad record, it’s a difficult time for any investment
anywhere in the world today, and its past record over say the last five, it’s
going to have to repair that record because the Reserve Bank in this country…
(interrupted)
MANDIWANZIRA: That’s quite patronising, that’s quite
patronising…
MUTUMWA MAWERE: But…
MANDIWANZIRA: … The fact of the matter is that if you’re
operating in Zimbabwe , and you don’t trust the environment, you might as well
not be there. You cannot be coming into my house and you want to have a meal in
my house and say but I don’t trust you. So don’t come and have that meal in the
house in the first place. We have an asset… (interrupted)
THORNYCROFT: They were there already.
MANDIWANZIRA: …you can go anywhere in the world and look for
a country that has got the second largest proven resources of platinum, you will
not find it, you will end up coming back to Zimbabwe . We are simply saying
those benefits must accrue to the local people. I do not disagree that there
were problems at the Reserve Bank, there were problems in the economy but I do
not think that these dispensations for banking outside were given by Gono, I do
not think that these dispensations existed only in the last five years, they
have existed for a very long, long time and we are saying it must stop. What was
the reason that was given for banking money outside, well they didn’t trust the
exchange rate, they didn’t trust that their money would be safe, well we have an
inclusive government here that has assured everyone that’s it’s no longer
business as usual, it’s now business unusual. So why don’t we bring back that
money at least it circulates within the Zimbabwe banking industry? Zimplats…
(interrupted)
THORNYCROFT: Because the inclusive government has stalled.
MANDIWANZIRA: … makes more than 20 million US dollars a
month. If that money was banked in the local banking system, it will make a
difference.
GONDA: Mutumwa, you wanted to come in?
MAWERE: Yes, I think my companies were taken over by State
action in 2004; today you read that at the companies right now workers can’t
even go underground because water level is rising, bills have not been paid. In
Zambia where I had an involvement in the copper mines, the examples are clear of
what happened in Zambia . The copper remained underground but it couldn’t be
extracted because of policies that inhibit investment. And when you talk of
indigenous, I’m not too sure whether Supa is listening to his own voice or he’s
talking as a businessman because any businessman would know that money cannot
stay in a bad relationship. People are, like the human spirit, the people who
leave Zimbabwe today are not invited by the people who host them, they find
their own way. Good countries don’t have to do anything. When the Berlin Wall
fell, the traffic, the human traffic indicated where people’s preference were.
Some people want to swim to freedom and that human spirit, if you are banking
it’s the same thing, it’s about confidence.
If Zimbabwe does what it needs to do you don’t have to invite anyone to bank
the money. But your costs are foreign. If you’re mining, even the physical
assets, the bulldozer is not made in Zimbabwe so you have to pay for it in
foreign currency. When you want to procure that asset everybody will say – look
can you give me evidence before I put in the ship that you are able to pay for
it. And in Zimbabwe you know that most of the banks don’t have, the people don’t
have income for known reasons.
So if you are saying that the asset, if I’m going to bring in the asset like
the special mining lease that was given to BHP to start even exposing the
platinum and that investment that is required without that off-shore account,
the platinum that Supa is talking about today will remain hidden where it was in
the Great Dyke, but somebody had to take the plunge. But in doing so, some of us
were involved in the time when I was working at the World Bank in trying to
convince the government that it was necessary to open the mining sector to the
potential that was there.
When Cecil John Rhodes, through Rudd Concession, got the concession from
Lobengula what they thought was the gold that they thought was there, they
didn’t even know about platinum but that platinum remained underground, diamonds
remained underground. But to expose it, even to have an interest in Zimbabwe ,
people with capital have to look at what their interests are. And I don’t think
that Supa himself - I’ve seen him in South Africa , that he is allergic to
foreign currency. He’s got his own foreign currency - but would want to pretend
today that he can be the custodian, the policeman of where people bank their own
money without him declaring … (interrupted)
MANDIWANZIRA: I’m not suggesting that I’d like to be the
custodian Mutumwa, I’m simply saying if you are a responsible investor and you
are extracting and exploiting a Zimbabwean asset, that’s really grounded, a
natural resource…
MAWERE: I’m investing, I’m putting…
MANDIWANZIRA: …surely you must have an obligation to say how
can I be of more help in this society. Zimbabwe …
MAWERE: And you become the custodian because you were
elected the president of the AAG? Of what I should do? If I go into the country,
the minerals remain in the ground and nothing happens, the platinum will still
be in the Great Dyke…
MANDIWANZIRA: …I’m simply saying there’s no reason why you
should operate an account outside the banks that are in Zimbabwe …
MAWERE: Are you saying you don’t have an account yourself?
I’m saying I’ve seen people who are disingenuous and are talking about other
people, when they have their own assets, their own interests. When you want to
buy things from South Africa you have to have the Rands ; if you want to buy in
the US you have to have the US dollars. What is wrong with that because the
costs have to be spent in Zimbabwe , the private sector party has to pay those
costs? It’s not government funds. Whether I put them in Europe , I put them in
Zimbabwe , what’s the difference? It’s still my money, if it’s in the left hand
pocket or the right pocket, it’s still my money. What is your interest in it!?
MANDIWANZIRA: My interest is this – that you’ve got to
be responsible in a country, if there’s no liquidity in the market and you are
turning over 30 million dollars a month, nobody’s taking that money away from
you but you have a responsibility to make everyone else around you prosper, so
make the banks prosper by you know, in circulating that money within that
system. That money you are obtaining it out of a Zimbabwean asset - so you do
have a social responsibility to make sure you are also assisting others without
losing a cent…
MAWERE: So you are now the social engineer?
MANDIWANZIRA: …will not lose money by banking it at Barclays
here in Zimbabwe, they’ll not lose money by banking it at CBZ, they’ll not lose
any cent, we are simply saying that money must be operated in Zimbabwean
accounts so the liquidity crisis is resolved so that the people are able to
borrow from the banks, because this money has been generated out of Zimbabwean
assets, what we are doing…
MAWERE: Like I, Supa…
MANDIWANZIRA: …is we are allowing that money to be lent to
other investors elsewhere and those are the ones who are benefiting.
MAWERE: Supa, I am by definition of the law I am indigenous,
previously disadvantaged, but I have never had the AAG even raise a finger about
assets of an indigenous being taken and being administered by someone appointed
by the State.
MANDIWANZIRA: We don’t have to shout about the actions we
take and I don’t think this is the platform to talk about what we have done for
you to recover your assets or…
MAWERE: Oh if it’s Rio Tinto you shout?
MANDIWANZIRA: …to be resolved. We don’t have to do it in
public.
MAWERE: Oh if it’s Rio Tinto we do it in public?
MANDIWANZIRA: We are talking about a law that has been
implemented in Zimbabwe that affects Rio Tinto.
MAWERE: I see, it doesn’t affect anybody.
MANDIWANZIRA: Oh come on.
GONDA: Let me go to Daniel to get his thoughts on this.
Daniel, Supa has said Zimbabweans have nothing to show for all the resources
that have been exploited. First of all, is this the right way to redress the
situation? And also do you agree with this bearing in mind of what happened in
the Chiadzwa diamond area where Zimbabwe has the resources but there are
Zimbabweans who are exploiting those diamonds?
DANIEL NDLELA: Well the fact that Zimbabweans have nothing
to show for the minerals under the ground is quite a fact but the issue here -
who is responsible for that 30 years after Independence ? Is it some foreigner
out there or some people who are ruling us? Governance is about fairness, is
about transparency, is not about empowering a few people.
MANDIWANZIRA: I agree with Daniel that there’s somebody to
blame for the past 30 years but at last finally we are seeing some action so we
applaud it. We now have an opportunity to make sure that it is happening and we
are controlling it.
GONDA: But Supa, why has it taken 30 years to redress this
situation?
MANDIWANZIRA: Unfortunately you are asking the wrong person,
you must ask those people who were responsible. I think that as AAG and other
empowerment groups, we’ve been making this noise for many, many years. And I
know for a fact that the move that we began to see in the financial sector where
licences, banking licences were then issued to people like Mutumwa and others,
was out of this push to say how can you continue to have a few organisations,
few determining who should get money and what sort of terms, why don’t we allow
our own people to get into these sectors like banking? That’s why we saw that
happening out of that pressure. So I think the same sort of pressure that has
been put on government to say where can we not see our people playing a part in
the biggest of enterprises that were achieved by some people simply by getting a
government stand, why can we not get into those assets? Because the majority of
these mines were given away, these concessions were given away by just a
government rubber stamp, nothing else. No money brought in, no evidence of
money, special concessions, bank your money in foreign countries, do whatever
you want, you don’t pay tax for the next five years and all these kind of
things. We are simply saying if you are giving a foreigner that benefit, 51% of
that benefit must accrue to a Zimbabwean.
GONDA: Daniel, do you have anything to add?
NDLELA: The point here, the moralistic behaviour of people
at the top of leadership positions is sickening and that is actually the point.
And as long as we have a situation where all these laws are done in opaqueness,
in areas that you don’t understand what is happening, empowering whether it’s
indigenous empowering - it is about empowering a few. Supa is the president now,
where is the former popular president? He has enriched himself, he is quiet. So
is this about the empowering of Zimbabweans? …
MANDIWANZIRA: We don’t believe at the Affirmative Action
that we must be like graders - we open the way for others and we are not allowed
to walk on that same road.
NDLELA: OK so as soon as you are empowered you disappear
Supa?
MANDIWANZIRA: There’s absolutely nothing wrong with anyone
who is with AAG or any other empowerment group to make money. And blacks must
not be apologetic for being rich because it is their country and it is their
resources.
NDLELA: At this point in time I think if we were to come
back to the subject matter is that we have to talk about governance and
leadership positions in this whole matter so that we know very well that we are
talking about the people who actually should be empowered. The people to me who
should be empowered are the working people of this country, not the few
intellectuals who are intellectually dishonest in the first place. The people to
be empowered are the people to be empowered through the normal avenues of
empowerment not the avenues of actually picking up the few and then the minister
is going to allocate from his head that Supa is number one in this thing and
next is Supa number two and of course I’m not going to put my hat in that thing.
GONDA: Do you believe companies should even bother to fill
in their plans for indigenisation by March 01 or defy this, or worse still,
strip down the assets and close?
NDLELA: Well, there’s no question of believing or not
believing. The law has been set, the companies are going to behave in a way that
they will actually be safeguarding their interests. What will their interests be
here? Their interests in the next five years, they will not invest so that the
cake is smaller because it is going to be taken over by the new 51% ownership.
So companies are actually going to be less enthusiastic, may close down or may
keep the status quo as it is but without investing because if you have your
money you must invest your money where your mouth is. You’re not going to invest
your money where other people are going to come in. And you don’t even know who
is going to be in bed with you until somebody is then allocated to you.
Companies are either going to follow the rule because this is the letter of the
law or are going to bolt out.
GONDA: And Peta, we said at the beginning of this discussion
that Morgan Tsvangirai, the Prime Minister in this coalition government that the
move had been made without his knowledge, so first of all, did he really need to
be consulted since the law was passed in parliament and what does this also say
about how this unity government is operating?
THORNYCROFT: Well from what I’ve read of the GPA and
we’ve all been writing about it for long enough, yes, Morgan should have been
consulted about it. He is the Prime Minister of this country but he seems to
have no power. Things seem to take place that in which he has absolutely no
power to stop. People being arrested, let’s go back to where Mutumwa was talking
about his company being specified and so little has been written about this both
by us foreign journalists and the domestic journalists – what happened to
Mutumwa’s companies. But when it hit Meikles, and I am presuming it hit Meikles
because journalists or those who visited Zimbabwe know about Meikles Hotel, and
there was this enormous outcry. Giles Mutsekwa, the MDC Minister signed this
specification apparently idiotically and it has in fact, allegedly been
reversed. But beyond that it seems to me that the inclusive government is at
Mugabe’s decision about whether something will or will not be fulfilled from the
Global Political Agreement.
It’s nearly 18 months since the Global Political Agreement was signed but
we’re stuck, paralysed with the inclusive government at the moment with
outstanding issues. I was at SADC Summit where these things were agreed and
we’re still quibbling about it. And until we have a new constitution ,so that
we’re going to free and fair elections, (a) why would anybody invest in us
because we don’t know what is going to happen and we’ve got a very poor record
of elections. In 2008 from March 28 th or about April 11 th until June 30 th of
2008 – I was in hospital, interviewing injured people because we had an
election. So we’ve got a very bad record here. We have a very bad record of our
government taking money, we have a very bad record of the de-industrialisation
of this country. We’ve lost at least 40 or maybe 60% of the industries we had in
1980, particularly in the last ten years. So we are a very bad risk country and
until the political situation is sorted out and we can move into free and fair
elections without being beaten up - because you want to support whoever it is in
your area you want to support - until we have all of those normal aspects of
democracy I can’t imagine there will be any investment at all. Let alone when
you can go to jail if you haven’t managed to sort out 51% of the company that
you might have been building up for 15, 20, 40 years.
It’s nonsense that anything, any progress can be made until the political
side of the country, the governance is sorted out – that has to come first
before we have regulations about handing over 51% of companies because they
might be foreign owned. And we say the mining companies contributed nothing to
this country? No I think even in 1980 even despite all the racial discrimination
and how unfair it was for black people, we got some roads, we got some
hospitals, we got some stuff out of it and we haven’t done a hell of a lot since
then. Since 1980 – what have we done to expand our industrial base, our mineral
exploitation, and our retail base – what have we done?
GONDA: Supa, let me come to you to get your comment on this
statement made by the Prime Minister that the regulations are null and void
since this issue was not discussed in Cabinet. What can you say about this?
MANDIWANZIRA: Well I am pretty much aware that these
regulations were gazetted by a government in which the Prime Minister is part of
and that the Minister who gazetted the regulations reports to the Prime Minister
in the Council of Ministers, and that this was done by the government of
Zimbabwe . Now the Prime Minister says he was not consulted and they are null
and void I don’t know how the whole process can be reversed and I do not like to
talk about that but as far as I’m concerned and as we are concerned at the AAG,
this is the law, if you want to change the law you’ve got to take the whole
process back to parliament and see what you can do. And as far as we are
concerned, we are taking them as legal, as the law as this has been done by the
inclusive government. Whether one has been consulted or not consulted we believe
those are only deficiencies in that inclusive government and we have nothing to
do with those deficiencies, as far as we are concerned this is the right thing
that has happened, we are moving on.
GONDA: But this is the Prime Minister saying this is not the
right thing and this regulation was sneaked through. So is that not a problem?
MANDIWANZIRA: Unfortunately the Movement for Democratic
Change in parliament with ZANU PF, they passed this law so unfortunately it’s
action after. You know I think it should have been stopped if the Prime Minister
and his political party didn’t agree, it should have been stopped at the process
of being legislated. Unfortunately you cannot now say when you have legislated
law and say you don’t like it. You want to change it, go back and start the
process again.
THORNYCROFT: Well it…
GONDA: But as we all know, this was done when ZANU PF was
still in the majority in parliament.
MANDIWANZIRA: Well because they had been voted by the people
of Zimbabwe to be in the majority.
GONDA: Peta, you wanted to say something?
THORNYCROFT: I just wanted to say that this went through
parliament literally days before parliament was dissolved and ZANU PF was in the
majority and I can’t actually recall, and I tried to look it up, what the MDC
actually said about this legislation and we should in fact be consulting them
and ask them what they thought about it then and did they or didn’t they put up
a good fight about it, but they only had about 42 MPs then.
GONDA: Mutumwa, your thoughts on this?
MAWERE: I think it’s always difficult to, you can
comment about the process and whether you’re consulted or whether you are not,
but at the end of the day, what the country requires now, it requires some
adjustment, requires a different viewpoint, a different world view and if we
know that the kind of changes that we are talking about can bring the results
that are predictable and sustainable then well and good. But when you know what
has happened in other countries pursuing similar policies and you then say look,
irrespective of that let me go head on. The law in question was passed as Peta
has rightly said, before the inclusive government and before the elections and
people of Zimbabwe spoke and I think their voice really saying let Zimbabweans
find each other, find the most optimal way of advancing the nation that’s the
interest - that requires now consultation and if the Prime Minister says he was
not consulted because now they are in a position where they need to ventilate
their own ideas and people who may see the world differently from the people who
controlled parliament at the time, they have to deal with it.
Even our laws – POSA, AIPPA, even the Reconstruction Act was passed – it
doesn’t make it a good law and whether you’re consulted and somebody’s driving,
you may consult a passenger but at the end of the day, if you fall asleep on the
steering, you’ll have an accident, it doesn’t change the speed but surely you
must be able to say to your people who are in the car today and say this is
where we are, we need to go to Point A or Point B, what is the best way of
getting there. And if Supa believes in his own bones that this is the best way
to build a nation, then that’s it - then we would have to look at Supa and say
how have you build yours - around a collective structure where your profits
become subject to corporate social responsibility or whether indeed you have
advanced your own interests and if you die today, your family is the successor
to that.
What kind of society does Zimbabwe need to be and what kind of society we
encourage anyone, not just people who were born in Zimbabwe, those who may be
born outside Zimbabwe, albeit with Zimbabwean parents or those who are born
outside Zimbabwe with no Zimbabwean parents to believe in the promise of
Zimbabwe and that requires not just minerals, that it’s our minerals, it
requires people to build confidence and that’s what we should be focussing on.
Without it you might have the best resources in the world but they will remain
in the ground and without it you may have the best laws, all the procedures you
say you are implementing but you know it’s toxic at the end of the day because
it discourages the very people we need to build the country and provide
confidence that jobs will be there and the country can advance its own interest.
Zimbabwe is too small to be able to command its own destiny without other
people’s input.
So I think those are the areas that I would rather focus on. As the Prime
Minister in the inclusive government, there’s a contestation for power because
there’s a transitional structure but what is not transitional is Zimbabwe .
Zimbabwe will remain whether this President or that President or this Prime
Minister or that Prime Minister, but what are Zimbabwe ’s interests and how can
they best be advanced. Does this law advance? Does the Reconstruction Law
advance? Does AIPPA, does POSA advance the Zimbabwean cause? And we may decide
to broaden the conversation so that we also understand why people would leave
Zimbabwe if there was promise - and if this law, I guess judging by what Supa is
saying, we will have now new plane loads and bus loads of people coming back
because the Indigenisation Law has given some life. I don’t believe so. People
will remain where they are because there are other things that drive the human
spirit.
GONDA: OK, let me just finish by getting a final word from
Daniel Ndlela?
NDLELA: As far as this law is concerned, we will wait to see
but the immediate perception of this law, it’s a bad law. It’s a law that is not
going to encourage investment in our country. Whether we praise ourselves and
say so on and say let those who come from the east or come from the south, they
will come here, the law itself is really not going to assist us. When it comes
to the consultation between the Prime Minister and so on, that has to be sorted
out there. In other words they show there is a serious lack of governance in the
system as a whole, let them sort out that one, but as far as this law is
concerned it is coming at a time when Zimbabweans actually needed more money
into our system and a fresh money into the system and the law itself is not
going to encourage that.
GONDA: Supa, a final word?
MANDIWANZIRA: Well my final word is this; that I’m not
suggesting, as has been said by Mawere, that there are going to be plane loads
of Zimbabweans coming back because of the Indigenisation Law. My point is this;
that here is now an opportunity for Zimbabweans who have worked so hard in the
Diaspora to come back and come and serve themselves, not serve the same master
who they were serving overseas or in other countries, that’s one. The second
point that I need to make is that people need to read and understand this law
and the investors more importantly need to understand this law because if they
rely on media reports they will be misled. The reality is that there is a
process that says an investor must identify the right partner and that right
partner must pay market value for whatever shareholding they are getting. And I
would like to encourage every Zimbabwean to say this is an opportunity to come
and board and make a difference, this is not a free for all, you’ve got to raise
money and you’ve got to be able to buy into a business that you can take forward
not a business that you can run down. So I’m saying this is the festive season
for all banks, for all sons to now look at opportunities that they can now
develop in Zimbabwe . If you do not come on board, this train is not stopping no
matter how much people talk against this move, the train is not stopping, come
on board and let’s go.
GONDA: Mutumwa?
MAWERE: Yes I think there are a lot of lessons available in
the world of what can be done and what should not be done and I think we all
should also rely on what has worked and what has not worked and there are some
laws that will not advance the collective interests of the country and such laws
require review and require interrogation and the more we do that, the more we
find what really should work for the country’s interest.
GONDA: And Peta?
THORNYCROFT: It’s so difficult to do business in Zimbabwe
anyway. The record of the previous government has been to legislate, restrict,
control, take over and interfere with. And so we have an economy 30 years after
Independence that is a small fraction of what it was in 1980, where industries
have closed down and where perhaps only the retail sector has enlarged. We
desperately need industries that create goods, services, jobs and a law like
this is just anti expansion. It’s actually a childish law, it’s a law based on
spitefulness. It has nothing to do with creating a Zimbabwe where the majority
of the population is employed and where the raw materials are beneficiated for
everyone’s good - for the companies’ good, for the workers’ good etc. ZANU PF
has no record of success and Minister Saviour Kasukuwere who has created these
legislations in consultation with his colleagues, should be advised to do what
is necessary to expand the economy and not contract it. At the beginning of this
debate I said instead of taking over companies, 51% no matter how it is done,
why is the energy of this country not going into creating new companies even to
replace those companies that have closed down in the last ten to 15 years? That
would be creative, this is just destructive.
GONDA: That was businessman Mutumwa Mawere, economist Daniel
Ndlela, the President of the Affirmative Action Group Supa Mandiwanzira and
journalist Peta Thornycroft speaking on the programme Hot Seat.
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