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Brian Kagoro: I’ve not changed my principle
starting point. 1; that it is inelegantly structured, it is made up of people
who don’t like each other, that there are serious conflicts of purpose that
therefore on certain fundamentals it will be difficult for the inclusive
government to deliver. However I think that its very existence has created a
sense of possibility for the private sector in Zimbabwe , for the common
entrepreneur and professionals. So to that extent I think that it has brought
some relief.
There are lots of goods that have reappeared in the shops,
prices that had gone haywire have come back to normal, so there are signs of
normalisation and one keeps wondering whether it is signs of normalisation of
the abnormal - because at a fundamental level as the Prime Minister indicated in
his statement, there are still serious issues to do with the rule of law, there
are still serious issues to do with getting consensus within the inclusive
government.
Gonda: Now some will say what you have just talked about could be viewed as
steps in the right direction since these are just the first few days of this
inclusive government, so don’t you think it is time that people did give the
coalition government or the politicians a break and see what they have to offer?
What can you say about this?
Kagoro: Well I’m not averse to giving anything an
opportunity. However one must caution that you build hope on clear principled
positions and not just pipe dreams or building sand castles in the air. This
inclusive government we were told is meant to last for two years. Three months
plus has since elapsed. We’re still quibbling and squabbling over very basic
things which are not fundamental to the transformation of the country. Things as
critical as restoration of normalcy of law and order are still seen as
contentious. Lack of clarity in terms of decision making and the exercise of
executive authority. So the inclusive government is functioning now because the
MDC has been bending over backwards from day zero. One wonders what will happen
if the MDC toughens its stand and for a change makes demands on fundamentals and
refuses to budge. I think then we will see a real test. If MDC adopts the same
attitude that Zanu has adopted on Tomana, on Gono and on many other things, like
the ministry of home affairs, defence and this thing to do with ambassadors and
permanent secretaries.
Gonda: Let’s talk some more in detail about some of these issues which
finance minister Tendai Biti described as toxic issues. Now in a statement on
the implementation of the Global Political Agreement and the outstanding issues
as you mentioned earlier on, the Prime Minister said that the parties had agreed
or have agreed to keep the current permanent secretaries but this is after the
MDC had raised objections over Mugabe’s unilateral appointments of these same
permanent secretaries. So based on the Prime Minister’s press conference it
appears that nothing has really changed. Is this a case of we are not happy you
didn’t consult us and now we are happy because you did? What are your views on
this?
Kagoro: I think for me it speaks to a larger question of
strategy. The MDC has for a long time insisted that it is a government in
waiting. The curious reasons in the Prime Minister’s statement about why they
considered: 1; that they went through the names of the individuals, ascertained
that the individuals were appropriately qualified and had requisite experience.
With the greatest of respect to the Prime Minister and those who were part of
that executive committee, no references made to attest on whether or not there
was an attempt to ascertain which of these individuals are openly partisan in
their politics because part of the justification in the Prime Minister’s
statement is that no civil servant should be seen to be partisan or should be
appointed on the basis of allegiance to a political party. Now this in my view
seems a very strange thing to say if one considers that you appointed ministers,
you appointed governors on the basis of political affiliation. You actually go
through this criteria that says so many for MDC -T, so many for MDC -M and so
many for Zanu.
And also the other thing that I find startling is that if the MDC has not
been in government ever, it would not have people with the experience of running
government so without making any reference at all to the qualifications or
experience of the current permanent secretaries, if in 1980 you had used the
criterion of appointing permanent secretaries and ambassadors merely on the
basis of experience, Zanu and Zapu would not have had adequately qualified
people. I think the whole spirit of a settlement of this nature makes, or takes
into cognisance the difference that a party that has been fighting for inclusion
and has hitherto been excluded would not have the same depth of experience.
We should ask what type of experience is it anyway. Are we suggesting that
the ministries are so efficiently and well run that there was no problem at the
level of administration of the ministries? Are we suggesting that all
individuals who are currently permanent secretaries are not guilty or tainted by
political bias and therefore would not act as an obstacle to attempts by the new
ministers to roll out a strategy for recovery based on the new politics of
inclusive governments?
Gonda: Brian, still on that issue, some critics actually say that manpower
development was never a strategy for the MDC during the last eight years. Now do
you think this has been their downfall in the negotiations because I spoke to
retired Judge Smith on this programme and he pointed out that appointments in
the public service are done on merit, seniority and service - so should the MDC
as an opposition party have seen this coming and made sure it also had people
who are trained for these positions or rise within the ministries?
Kagoro: Violet, I think people sympathetic to the opposition
across the globe, there are many with sufficient experience. I can think of
several who would be able to take over those dockets. They may not be party card
waving members but they are people who have consistently would have voted for
the opposition, people who would have been pro-democracy, people who would have
been opposed to a certain type of exclusive politics that we saw emerge in our
country. I think that the opposition needs to be careful not to limit its
conception of government only to those of us and others who were seen to be
either close to certain actors within that opposition or seen to be openly
allied to it. I think that the pool of Zimbabwean talent where the opposition
need to have looked at and needs to look at when it does its appointments is
much wider than they have so far done.
I do not blame the lack of manpower capacity; I blame the short sightedness
in terms of how far they’ve been willing to look. Many of the Zimbabweans in the
Diaspora, in England, Australia, the Americas and even in South Africa, very
senior people of great competence to run ministries, great managerial and other
skills that are required, some even with great experience in government
departments. I do think that there has been a deliberate effort to wean out, to
look out for, to search for, I think we have confined it to party structures
which perhaps tragic and one hopes that the opposition and others prepare for
the election in two years time that they have a much broader and wider vision of
society and political appointment than we have adopted so far.
Gonda: And you mentioned that the Prime Minister said that civil servants
should not be appointed on a partisan basis and so they will not be civil
servants from the MDC or Zanu PF. But what safeguards are there within the
system now that will prevent an appointee from playing politics?
Kagoro: None. I think that the attempt to fire any senior
civil servant on the basis of political bias would itself be a fairly contested
and contentious issue. By the time you are through with the hearing and some
form of investigation, the tenure of this interim inclusive government would
have run out. So I think from a strategic level the MDC has been put into a
corner. I think it has allowed itself to accept criterion, criterion that would
make it difficult for it to contest the appointments that Zanu has made and will
make.
A good example, if you use the criterion the Prime Minister set out – ‘the
appointment must be of somebody who has experience or competence’, you will have
problems around the Gono and Tomana issue because you will have to prove if you
apply those criterion that Gono has no experience. To the best of my
recollection, there are only three people who have run the central bank in the
country at the level of governor. Kombo Moyana, Leonard Tsumba and Gideon Gono.
So I think that you need a much wider perspective when thinking through this. We
have a question not just of experience and expertise, there’s a question of
appropriateness to the moment including the political atmosphere and the
trajectory of development that you are attempting to foster under the inclusive
government and I think that criteria would disqualify some and qualify others
and I think we need to be a little more robust when thinking about this.
Gonda: So do you think that the MDC has capitulated on this issue of
permanent secretaries?
Kagoro: Well one must not be unduly critical of them but one
must also not be unduly sympathetic. The question on the table was, and I did
raise this in our last interview with the two honourables Priscilla
Misihairabwi-Mushonga and Nelson Chamisa. When I asked have the other questions
of fundamental appointments - directors of ministries, permanent secretaries and
others been resolved? When you say the government is inclusive in the sense of
power sharing where does power in your conception of government lie? What
exactly are you sharing?
Ministers may represent the executive authority but they are merely in most
instances just figureheads. The persons who actually run ministries are
permanent secretaries. So in this particular instance, what you effectively
saying, is that with respect to the administration of ministries, we are not
sharing power. Power lies with the incumbent. So you can say in that regard
perhaps they have capitulated but on another level you have to ask the
fundamental question - have the MDC thought through this particular question,
put in place a strategic framework of identifying talent that would fill those
positions beyond party loyalists? If they hadn’t I do not think that they had
any choice because they would have unduly delayed the question after it had been
opened for dialogue. I think they went to the table with a generic demand and
when it came to specifics I don’t think that they had sufficiently strong
specific alternative proposals, which is a shame.
Gonda: And also on the issue of the governors, the principals agreed to share
the positions of governors using the original agreement where the MDC -
Tsvangirai was going to get five governors, Zanu PF four and the Mutambara MDC
one, and they also decided that the six governors whose tenure is to be
terminated now as a result of this agreement will be paid an agreed
compensation. What are your views on that and also at whose expense?
Kagoro: Well I’m curious to know Violet as all Zimbabweans
are, because governors are appointed at the pleasure of the presidency or the
executive and the president does not always wait for the expiration of the term
of office before reshuffling, dis-appointing or re-appointing of governors. So
I’m curious to know whether in instances where he has had to change a governor
mid-stream or replace whether those who have been replaced, because they were
political appointees under the constitution, have had to be compensated.
It seems to me an extraordinary step to take because governorship is not a
job like permanent secretaryship. It would be bizarre if you were to suggest
that because you had appointed a person a minister - which is the prerogative of
the executive authority of the country and you decide to replace the minister
before the end of his term of office that you now have to compensate them? For a
country that is failing to pay civil servants salaries, to have enough resources
to pay political appointees seems to me an extraordinary step to go for
political appeasement.
Gonda: Right, and also on the issue of the Reserve Bank
governor and the Attorney General, we mentioned a bit about them, now the MDC
has said that there is a deadlock and they are now appealing to SADC and the
African Union for help over the appointment of Gideon Gono and Johannes Tomana.
Now it was the same regional bodies who forced the parties into this deal before
all the outstanding issues had been resolved, so what can we expect from the AU
and SADC?
Kagoro: Well I do not think that SADC or the AU are going to
say well, remove Gono and Tomana. At the very most they may call for a process,
an independent process of ascertaining the appropriateness of the appointees of
the appointments - and that process will take long and in the time that the
processes are being undertaken, the two will remain in office. If the MDC ’s
claim is that these were illegal appointments then it’s not really a matter for
negotiation, the law takes its course but if the MDC says these were
appointments made in bad faith and therefore they should be voided. Well then
what they are asking SADC to say is well is it possible to void both of them, is
it possible to void, to nullify one appointment, is it possible to have an
independent process of appointing the two. So you set aside the current
appointment and then you put in place an independent process by which you look
at candidates and applicants the parties submit and on the basis of agreed
criteria the appointment is made. I think that the resort to SADC is taking the
matter the long way, it is also detaining resolution of the matter but it seems
that if you have not reached agreement, you have no other choice because clearly
you are being treated as a junior partner in the arrangement.
Gonda: And of course, the finance minister Tendai Biti
indicated that he’s implementing reforms to the RBZ Act, the Reserve Bank of
Zimbabwe Act, that will clip Gideon Gono’s wings, so why then is there this
battle of having to remove him, shouldn’t the reforms be able to control him?
Kagoro: I think that goes back to what I’ve said earlier
about the curious contents of the Prime Minister’s statement. If you accept that
appointments are to be non-partisan, the objection as I understand it of the MDC
is not only based on what are perceived or alleged to be excesses on the part of
Gono, that he acted in excess of his authority, there are not only objections to
the execution of his duties. There are insinuations that he may have aligned
himself improperly to a particular political project, a particular political
position and that therefore the basis upon which they wish to have him removed
is both their perception that he is not the most appropriate person for the
office and secondly the notion that he is tainted with bias.
I understand that the erstwhile attorney general openly declared his
allegiance to the ruling party and his activism there. And of course the others
who have said what is wrong with a person in that office saying that they are
aligned to a particular party unless if you can demonstrate that in their
decision-making they have shown this tendency to be biased in favour of their
party. But that’s neither here nor there, I think that the long and short of it
Violet, Gono’s boss is the minister of finance, Gono was used to bypassing
normal channels of reporting within a government and that was perhaps what the
moment permitted but the moment has since shifted, we’ve gone back towards
normalisation and it is the minister who should be able to determine in
consultation with the executive authority in the country, the Prime Minister and
the president whether or not the person he is working with is the most
appropriate for the sort of task ahead.
Gonda: And what did you make of the letter that Gideon Gono
allegedly wrote to Prime Minister Morgan Tsvangirai complaining about the
finance minister and alleging that he has been victimised and that Tendai Biti
is corrupt. What did you make of that?
Kagoro: I think that Gideon Gono may not be looking at the
clock and what time of the day it is. I read the letter; it is devoid of any
meaningful substance. I think it is somewhat childish. I think that if he is
aggrieved by innuendos and allegations made against him the appropriate redress
would be for him to demonstrate that he has the competence in the moment that we
are in to execute the duties of a competent governor of the Central Bank, act as
a regularity authority. There are also reasons why Gono is a sore issue that I
did not mention earlier. Because of his curious policies and some of vindictive
manner in which he pursued fellow bankers, he destroyed life savings of ordinary
pensioners and workers, so the demand for Gono to retire is not a demand merely
from I think minister Biti. The demand of ordinary Zimbabweans who feel they
were short-changed, who feel that in the pursuit of whatever policies of Gono
was pursuing, their lives and livelihoods were destroyed.
If I were Gideon Gono - and when you have reached that level of unpopularity
because I’m not hearing a resounding, if it were just Gono and Biti, one could
accept that perhaps there is a personal vendetta, I’m not hearing the parliament
of Zimbabwe even after receiving free cars of sorts from him, I’m not hearing a
legislative voice standing up in his defence. I’m not even hearing the higher
echelons of Zanu in a united manner, rising up to defend him. I’m not hearing
the private sector or the banking sector or anyone of significance in the
neutral so-called civic and other sectors standing up to defend him. He is the
only one who is defending himself except for one or two political collaborators.
In my view, just out of honour whether or not one accepts the allegations,
Gideon should gracefully step down and allow for whatever investigation need to
be made and if his name is cleared then he can contend that he is entitled to
resume his duties as governor of the Central Bank. This time to die, or wanting
to die on the throne and insisting on fighting his employer seems not only
futile but somewhat childish and also it is regrettable that he is using access
he has to intelligence, files, what should be official secrets to wage wars
around his public and personal credibility.
Gonda: You know in the letter that was somehow leaked to the
press, Gono accuses the minister of corruption and claims that the law firm
where the minister was a senior partner externalised foreign currency. What do
you make of these allegations?
Kagoro: You know Violet, if minister Biti had done that, if
there is any substance then it’s a matter for police investigation. I am a
lawyer inasmuch as I’ve not accepted without any evidence personal or otherwise
any allegation made against anyone. I think Gono is not the Commissioner of
Police and besides these allegations are not that the minister diverted State
funds. He is suggesting that a law firm in which the minister is only one of I
think ten or 15 partners externalised. To try and turn the sins of a body
corporate - even assuming these allegations were true - the crimes of a whole
body corporate onto one person, and Biti is not the most senior partner in the
law firm in question sounds somewhat either an expression of a lack of
understanding of basic partnership or company law or just mere malice and an
exercise in foolishness.
Gonda: And based on your assessment of the inclusive
government and on Zanu PF, what do you think of the Zanu PF strategy? Does it
look like Zanu PF actually wants this inclusive government to work or not?
Kagoro: I think we must distinguish, I don’t accept that
everyone in Zanu PF holds the same script. I mean they may attempt to sing from
the same song sheet but there is a lot of discord. There are those who see the
opportunities for recovery for the country and therefore also their businesses
and their fortunes as individuals. There are those who see a future in which
they still wish to continue as political actors. I think those are some of the
individuals who are working to ensure that there are no political actions taken
that will continue to tarnish the image of the country either as an investment
destination or tourist destination and so those I think are working within the
spirit of the inclusive government to ensure that there is a modicum of decency
that returns.
There are others though who are still stuck in a time warp, who still imagine
that things are as they were when they were the only ones fully in control and
in power who I think will do everything in their power to undermine and derail
this attempt at forming an inclusive process. I think ultimately, the forces
that will prevail in the country are those forces who will have had enough
politics of unpleasantness, who have done enough self-destruction and ruin, it’s
about time we began to rebuild a legacy for ourselves, for our children and
rebuild the country, its reputation amongst a community of progressive world
nations. So I think that the militia, militants, the die-hards from both sides
will continue like ghosts which refuse to die and haunt our politics but it’s
daytime now so the ghosts are not going to be as scary during a moment where the
country has this level of great hope, whether that hope is misplaced or not.
Gonda: Briefly Brian, what weaknesses and strengths have you
seen in the MDC in terms of strategies?
Kagoro: I think that their greatest strength has been their
ability to ignore great insults and there have been many. If they were to be
childish they would have thrown out their toys a long time ago because things
have not gone well for them in the last 100 days. Apart from being taken on a
merry-go-round with regards to appointments, whether they be governors,
permanent secretaries or ambassadors, there are also fundamentals like these
fresh farm invasions, arrest of their allies and friends and all sorts of things
but they’ve gone all out to try and collectively plead with international
community to support recovery.
I think that one must commend them and some of their colleagues in Zanu who I
think are trying to make what is a totally unworkable framework to yield some
good in the short while that it subsists. So that’s one strength. The second one
is we are increasingly seeing an attempt on their part to re-orientate
themselves towards the larger African community and understand the dynamics and
try and engage those dynamics, so the reference to SADC as opposed to the
broader international community, be it assistance, even an engagement with the
west and the north that they must, even in this moment of difficulty be an
African solution. It’s something that must be commended.
I have not seen as much progressive stance on the part of their Zanu
colleagues. As I have said, there are flickers of hope but on the whole Zanu PF
really thinks that it has employed the MDC to play its international public
relations game, sanitise Zanu in the international community so that Zanu can
say to the rest of the world we’ve absolutely no crisis in Zimbabwe but for the
sanctions.
Gonda: And weaknesses?
Kagoro: I think they are being kept as errand boys and
girls. I’m not sure that questions raised in the past about party coherence,
about structural coherence, about policy coherence have been attended to or
about manpower development that you raised earlier on or person power
developments. I’m not sure they still have their eyes on the ball which is the
forthcoming election which is meant to be in two years. I think they are so
fixated on trying to get this thing to work so that their detractors and critics
don’t say to them we told you so, that they’ve lost the plot of the larger
political game which is ultimately this must lead to an election of a democratic
government by the popular vote of the people as opposed to the political
settlement.
Gonda: And finally, the last time we spoke you were highly
pessimistic or rather you were apprehensive of this inclusive government. Now do
you think you have been vindicated?
Kagoro: I promised myself that I would not say I told you so
partly because it would be immature to say so but I think that what I can say is
some of the things that I predicted have happened. I indicated that there would
be contentions around the appointment of permanent secretaries and ambassadors
and other critical posts - we haven’t even gone to ministry directorates. I also
indicated that Zanu would give in very little. I also was apprehensive that the
current arrangement would not deliver on human rights questions and today as we
speak it has hardly done so. There’s still the issue of Jestina Mukoko and other
activists, the consistent harassment and arrest of journalists.
I was apprehensive whether these people were committed to working together.
The to-ing and fro-ing that we have seen over very minor issues suggest to me
that the readiness to work together is at a rhetorical level and I think they
still have challenges at a practical level. But I’m more hopeful, not because of
the inclusive government as I said to you but the general spirit of hope and I
also think the positive spirit with which the broader African community, and
even sections of the international community have welcomed even the slightest
glimmer of hope in Zimbabwe and I think this will help to create a larger
framework for hope and reconstruction.
And so whilst I am sceptical about the inclusive government as a creature and
I’m skeptical about the commitment to it as a principle and working together I’m
very hopeful that the sort of positive energy that has been ushered in will be
harnessed appropriately and take us out of this dark hour. But if we don’t
harness that energy, if we continue to play this childish politics of trying to
prove who has more muscle and power I think the country will slip back into the
abyss that it has been in and we will only have ourselves to blame. We will
become a laughing stock to the rest of the continent.
Gonda: That was Brian Kagoro with his views on the programme
Hot Seat. Brian thank you very much.
Kagoro: You’re welcome Violet.
Feedback can be sent to violet@swradioafrica.com | 
