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SW Radio Africa Transcript HOT SEAT interview: Journalist Violet Gonda speaks to JOMIC co-chairperson Professor Welshman Ncube. Broadcast: 03 April, 2009 | |
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Violet Gonda: Professor Welshman Ncube, the Minister of Industry and Commerce and co-chairperson of the Joint Monitoring Implementation Committee or JOMIC is my guest on the Hot Seat programme. Welcome Professor. Welshman Ncube: Thank you. Gonda: Now let’s start with the basics about JOMIC. We have heard that JOMIC’s role is to supervise the Agreement but there were reports saying that you had no funding, no premises, so what is the current situation? |
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Ncube: It is of course true that JOMIC’s mandate is to monitor the implementation of the Global Political Agreement and ensure that that Agreement is implemented to the fullest extent possible in letter and spirit. It is also true that JOMIC started without any resources and has currently no grant from the State and so far what we have been doing is using the resources of the political parties, the individuals’ involved to convene meetings and we have done so successfully. But we have still managed to raise sufficient resources for at least the next twelve months for JOMIC to be able to do its work. We are in the process of securing offices, we are in the process of securing secretariat staff, so that there is an office for JOMIC and for the secretariat staff who will work on a fulltime basis for JOMIC. So yes, we started with nothing but we have moved on and we think that in terms of material resources we raised enough money for operations for the next twelve months. Gonda: Right. I also understand that you also received support from the Netherlands Institute for Multi Party Democracy – is this correct? Ncube: Well I’m not at liberty at this stage to disclose any of that but it is not correct that we have got any resources from the Netherlands at all. We have got resources from a number of donor countries who have put together money to support the work of JOMIC but the Netherlands is not one of them. Gonda: Why would it be a problem to disclose this, it is not a secret, you’re three political parties that are working together so why would it be a problem to disclose the funding - where the funds are coming from? Ncube: I’m sure in due course that will be done. It’s just not appropriate for me to unilaterally without the authority of JOMIC to do that at this stage and I think it should be done properly through the JOMIC processes. Gonda: So right now, if people want to get hold of you as JOMIC, how can they do that? You said you are in the process of looking for offices, so in the meantime, where do people find you? Ncube: Well in the meantime, the procedure is that you communicate through the co-chairpersons. Your first port of call should be the co-chairperson for that particular month and this month the co-chairperson is Minister Nicholas Goche of Zanu-PF, last month it was Minister Elton Mangoma of MDC T and in February it was myself. So the first point of call is to contact the co-chairperson, either at their party office or at their government office or their cell phones or their emails. We have communicated very well so far, so you can find JOMIC through each co-chairperson and generally speaking. Gonda: So have members of the public been reporting infringements to you? Ncube: Well we receive hundreds and hundreds of communications from the members of the public in and outside Zimbabwe, we received communication going really into thousands - for instance around the detainees, we still do. We receive dozens and dozens of communications right now around the prosecution of farmers, around alleged farm invasions, and so forth and so on. Any aspect of the Agreement members of the public send letters to us, they telephone us, they email us. So we have been getting complaints, quite a lot of them. Gonda: We will talk a bit more about the issue of the political detainees and the farm invasions, but what about you as JOMIC, have you noticed any infringements of the Global Political Agreement? Ncube: Well I wouldn’t say infringements. You will know that as JOMIC, there were matters which were referred to us by the SADC summit and we have been dealing with those matters - the question of the media; the question of detainees. And the question of the farm invasions has now been referred to us by the farming associations and individuals. But of course as JOMIC, we don’t wait for infringements. As JOMIC we say we have the Global Political Agreement, what are the aspects of it which require implementation so we have created a matrix of the areas of implementation and the institution or individual or bodies who are supposed to implement that aspect of the Agreement. And we are in the process right now of communicating and discussing with whoever has the responsibility for the implementation of a particular agreement so that quite early on we alert each of the parties that have this responsibility under the GPA so that we don’t go for twelve months and then come back and someone says ‘ah I did not know I had this obligation’. So we are trying through that matrix to say this is what has to be done, this is how it is required to be done, this is when it should be done and then we communicate with who is supposed to do it, drawing their attention to their responsibility to do that particular thing. So that is what we have been doing so far. We have not gone around hunting for infringements; we get lots of those from members of the public. Gonda: So can you give us some examples of where you have been successful in dealing with some of the problems on the ground? Ncube: Well first our work as JOMIC is such that by its nature it requires JOMIC as a body which has representatives of the political parties to reach a consensus; first, that there is a problem if there is one; and then to reach a consensus on what the solution is and the procedures to arrive at that solution. So you will find that we spend quite a substantial part of our time gathering facts and analysing them and developing a consensus. And naturally in the circumstances we have to carry all the political parties with us, the three political parties, and for that reason we can’t be standing at the top of a building or mountain to say ‘so-and-so has violated this agreement or so-and-so has done this’. Ours is to ensure that there’s a correct ratification and therefore we will be working largely behind the scenes, quietly persuading, negotiating so that the Agreement is properly implemented. In doing the job in that way has meant that over the last few months, we have negotiated around the question of detainees, some will call them political detainees, so far we have worked on the political detainees and all of them virtually have been released, except for three or so. And we are working around the outstanding three. And hopefully in the next few weeks we can secure the release of those outstanding three or so. And we have engaged the media in respect of complaints about the abusive, the bias and the incitement to hatred in both the private and public media. And I’m happy to say that by and large the vitriol and the abusive and the hate speak which we have been witnessing for quite a long time have diminished quite considerably in this regard. Of course we are currently seized with matters relating to the question of farm invasions or alleged farm invasions which we are trying to deal with. Gonda: On the issue of the media, both MDC formations have complained in the past that the State controlled media does not give equal coverage to all the parties. Has that changed? Ncube: Well we have a media sub-committee as JOMIC which has been looking into this issue and monitoring both the public and private media and they have reported to us considerable improvement in this regard and indeed none of the political parties have complained. There are of course, still exceptions particularly among some of the columnists. Those we are talking about Cabinet Files, Muckraker and so forth and so on, who still resort to unnecessarily combative, if I may say, and sometimes bordering on hate speak and abusive language. But by and large, by and large there is considerable improvement. Gonda: But to some extent is it really the job of the JOMIC to tell the media how it should operate or how it should write the stories about the crisis in Zimbabwe? Ncube: It certainly is not our job to tell the media how it should operate and what it should or should not write but we have a job to ensure that the media complies with our understanding as political parties in the Political Global Agreement. So we have an obligation for instance to ensure that the State media does not report unfairly and does not resort to hate speak and does not promote, does not promote ethnic and racial divisions in the country. We have that responsibility and there is no society which doesn’t have certain limits and this is within those limits which are limits by and large which are found in the law. And in any event our authority of JOMIC is authority of persuasion and we’ve no power to stop anyone from doing anything, no power to compel other than the power to persuade and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Gonda: What about on the issue of the political detainees, you mentioned that there are three who are left in custody and I presume you are talking about Ghandi Mudzingwa, Chris Dhlamini and Shadreck Manyere? Ncube: Yes. Gonda: Now what evidence is there against these political detainees? Does JOMIC understand or have you studied the evidence to find out why they’re being denied bail, when the others, their co-accused have already been granted bail? Ncube: Well it’s not our job to assess the quality of the evidence the State has - that is a matter for trial when these people are eventually brought to trial. Our job is to ensure that there is a rule of law; our job is to ensure that we collectively act in a manner which promotes cohesion in government; in a manner which promotes the construction of trust - the development and maintenance of trust among the political parties. And I can tell you that in respect of the detainees, the overwhelming majority of people in Zimbabwe, outside Zimbabwe do not believe that the detainees committed any offence. To put it differently, they have already, without a trial, been acquitted in the court of public opinion – that is what people believe. On the other hand, the police believe that they have evidence against these people and that they’ve good cases to prosecute them for violations of the law. In the Global Political Agreement we agreed that no-one should be above the law regardless of which political party they belong to. So that for instance, those who committed violence between March 29 and June 27 last year should be brought to book and anyone else who the police in investigations find evidence against - they have to take them to court. For that reason we therefore said as JOMIC we cannot determine the innocence or guilt of any person, it is not our job it is the job of the courts. But our job is to try and ensure the creation of a conducive climate for trust to exist and it is in this regard that we were of the view that the proper thing to do is to ensure that all these people are granted bail and they go to their homes and they await trial from outside the prison and then await their trial. So our job has been to try and secure the release on bail of these persons and this is why we have tried within the limits of the Constitution to get the principals, the President, the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, the Minister of Justice, the Attorney General to come to a conclusion whereby the State does not oppose the granting of bail to these people. The three you are mentioning have been denied bail and our understanding that the denial of bail by the High Court in circumstances where the State is no longer opposing bail was irregular and the matter has gone to the Supreme Court, hopefully it will be rectified as soon as possible. Gonda: So what about the other issue of the missing activists? The MDC T sent out a statement saying that at least seven activists, people who were abducted between the months of October and December are still missing. Does JOMIC know about this? Ncube: Well that matter is before JOMIC. Let me say for the record in answer to that question that broadly speaking we dealt with three categories of prisoners. The first category was the prisoners who the State admitted they had in their custody. The police and the prison authorities said we have these people, we have opposed their bail and the court has denied them bail and this is where the majority of them fell. And I’m happy to say that the overwhelming majority, except for the three, have now been released - who fell in that category. Then there was the category whom the State never charged. They were detained without any charges, there were existing court orders for their release and however, notwithstanding those High Court orders for their release, the police continued to keep them in custody, in some instances suggesting that they were in protective custody because these people were going to be witnesses and they were happy to remain in detention. And I’m happy to say that all the detainees falling in this category have now since been released by the police. And then there was the third category of people who were alleged to have been abducted, who the police however denied that they ever arrested these people. The police denied any knowledge of these people and consequently once the police or any of the security agencies deny that they know of the whereabouts of these people it becomes impossible to secure their release. What we then had to say, was since you say you don’t have them as the police, now through the co-ministers of Home Affairs, can you direct the police to investigate what happened to these people so they can open a docket on their disappearance. That is what is being done and that is what the ministers of Home Affairs assure us and have agreed with us will be done; namely to investigate what happened to these people. So we are assured that investigations are ongoing into these alleged abductions and what might or might not have happened to the individuals that are concerned. So that is where we are in respect of that category of detainees. Gonda: Let’s move on and talk about the probe into farm invasions, and as you said earlier on JOMIC has been tasked to look into this matter. What is your position on this issue first of all as JOMIC? Ncube: Well we were receiving numerous complaints by text message, by email, orally, in written form from a variety of people in respect of alleged farm invasions. These fall in different categories. There are people who are being prosecuted by the State, by the Attorney General for remaining unlawfully in farms which the State has acquired and in respect of which the State says it has issued Eviction Notices. And these people are being arrested at all sorts of hours it is alleged, taken to court and in some instances have admitted guilt, have been fined or jailed and this is alleged to be done in a manner which is inconsistent with the principles of the rule of law. That’s one category. The next category is in respect of farmers who are being pushed out of their farms by persons who are holding offer letters from the State saying we have offered you such and such a farm, and in most of these cases these farms also are alleged to have already been acquired in the past - a long time ago - by the State but no eviction notices had been ever issued or served. And what is now alleged to be happening is that new persons who have been given offer letters are now evicting the farmers. And it is alleged in some instances that in the process of trying to get occupation of these farms these new individuals are then assisted by groups of thugs and young persons, in some instances it is even alleged they have been assisted by the military almost privately contracted soldiers to help them evict these people. That’s just one of the categories that we have received. Then of course there are what we call the BIPPA farmers, the farmers from Italy, France and a number of other countries who have bi-lateral investment protection agreements with Zimbabwe and these are also being prosecuted and are being evicted from their farms, it is alleged. And then of course it is complained that these people cannot and should not be evicted because they are protected by the bi-lateral investment protection agreement between Zimbabwe and their countries. So these are some of the main categories in respect of the issue relating to what is generally referred to as farm invasions. Gonda: So how is JOMIC dealing with these problems? Ncube: What we have basically done is to say, let’s put together all the information, all the data. Complaint by complaint, farm by farm, farmer by farmer, where is the farm, who is the original owner of this farm, was there a notice of acquisition, when was this done, when was this gazetted, when was it served on the farmer, was there a notice of eviction, when was it issued, when was it served and is there an offer letter, to whom, when was the offer letter issued. If there has been an eviction, how has the eviction been done, is there a prosecution, how has the prosecution been done. So gathering all that data in respect of each complaint from the farmers’ associations and from the individuals concerned, that’s what we have been doing as JOMIC and that is what Cabinet said we should continue to do. So once we have gathered all that data it is agreed that we will then place the documentation before the Minister of Lands, we will engage with the Minister of Lands and say this is what we have established and do you agree with these facts? If so then what is it that we can do to find a solution? Because the most important thing is that the land in Zimbabwe must be used for the benefit of the country. The people who are on the land, the farmers, must farm and there must be minimum possible disruption in respect of the farming activities for the winter crop as well as for the summer crop. That’s what we want to achieve and in this regard we want to find a solution, a solution which will include the farmers whose land has been acquired by the State so that we find some way of ensuring that they can continue to farm. I do not want to pre-empt what JOMIC’s views are on this one and what JOMIC will propose as the possible solution to the Minister of Lands on this particular issue. But that is what we are doing and we hope that we can find a solution, a win-win solution where everybody will be happy at the end of the day, where the farmers who are on the land will be allowed to continue farming in one way or the other and the new farmers who have been given land have the ability, and the willingness to farm can also be accommodated so that they can also begin, commence their farming operations. We hope that we will be able to strike a balance in this instance. Gonda: I hear what you are saying but the reports we are still getting on the ground are that farm invasions are still continuing and violence is continuing, so surely people with legitimate offer letters are not expected to take the law into their own hands and that some orderly handover process that avoids violence and confrontation should be instituted. So what can be done right now while you are embarking on this process that you have just outlined for us? Ncube: Well as JOMIC and the Cabinet we are in total agreement that farm invasions, as that word is understood, should not take place. We are agreed that violence on the farms must stop and we are agreed that anyone who has an offer letter cannot engage in self-help at all and there should be no violence. That is agreed and the police have been asked to ensure that there are no farm invasions, to ensure that the violence is stopped. That does not have to await any of the things that JOMIC is working on. It is agreed that the rule of law must be fair, it is agreed that the police must implement the rule of law, must enforce it and violence must be brought to an end. Gonda: But what happens when it’s the police themselves and you know land officers and senators who are going around illegally invading farms, looting and beating up farm workers and farmers. So who is going to stop or arrest the police for example? Ncube: It’s the question of who will guard the guards if that is happening, but the government, the Ministry of Home Affairs, if the police are in fact engaged in any unlawful activities and as JOMIC we don’t have any conclusive proof on that or indeed any proof of that - we have the allegations. If that is happening then those police officers should be disciplined in the ordinary course of discipline within the police. Political leadership in that ministry, the political as well as the administrative leadership should take responsibility and deal with this. It’s completely unacceptable, it’s not allowed and we are unanimous in government that should not happen. Gonda: Let’s move on to other issues. Last week I spoke to Sam Sipepa Nkomo, the Water Minister and during the interview he also said that there are a lot of infringements of the Global Political Agreement and there are some fundamental issues that are still not been resolved and he mentioned the appointments of governors, permanent secretaries and ambassadors. What are your views on this? Ncube: Well those matters have not been referred to JOMIC but as leaders in the various political parties, we are aware that the matter of governors is still outstanding, partly because the Prime Minister has been away until this week, the principals have not been able to meet and discuss and find a quick solution to that matter. We hope that now that the Prime Minister is back the three principals will meet over these matters, be they issues of permanent secretaries, of governors. Those matters, it is a matter of public knowledge that are outstanding and that they need to be resolved and hopefully the three principals will be able to find a solution sooner rather than later. It has not been referred to JOMIC for resolution. In particular the matter for instance of governors it is a matter indeed which cannot and should not be referred to JOMIC because it is a matter which is outstanding from the negotiations, it’s not a question of implementing. There is nothing to implement because the agreement has not been reached. The negotiators made certain conclusions, made recommendations to the principals, now it is for the principals to consider those recommendations. So one cannot say the issue of governors is a matter of implementation which can be monitored, it is still a matter of resolution in terms of what the parties can agree to. Then the question of permanent secretaries, yes that is a matter of implementation, but the principals have not referred it to JOMIC, they’ve said they can deal with it and they're dealing with it. Gonda: And the issue of the ambassadors? Is this the same? Ncube: There is no issue on ambassadors because there is no violation which has occurred. People ought to understand that there was no agreement to say the positions of ambassadors, permanent secretaries are automatically vacant. The agreement and understanding was that when it comes to these appointments, the President and the two Vice Presidents, the Prime Minister and the two Vice Ministers will sit together and review the civil service. Is this person the right person to be ambassador in China, is there an alternative? What is the alternative? Just like any other executive leadership of any institution they sit and agree on who is the best suited person to do what job. In recognising in particular that the civil service is supposed to be politically neutral, is supposed to be professional people, who are not partisan, who will serve the political leadership of the day. They’re supposed to be technocrats appointed by the political leaders and that is what is supposed to happen and it is work in progress. Gonda: But why is it, I know you said that there was a problem, the principals could not meet during the period when the Prime Minister was grieving, but this is now two months into the new government and the parties have not resolved these matters, why is that? Ncube: Violet, there is no time frame and there should be no time frame in the structuring of the civil service. It is something which will take months and years, so there is no issue in respect of permanent secretaries and ambassadors in terms of time. Yes you are right the issue which should have long been resolved is the issue of governors and what the difficulties the principals are having, I can’t say apart from that there was this disruption around the bereavement which has taken place. Gonda: But on the issue of the permanent secretaries, it is the permanent secretaries who in practice actually run the different ministries. So if you say there is no rush, it can be done in a few months, in years, is that really the case? Don’t you need them to be part and parcel of the government from the very beginning? Ncube: Look Violet, these are professional people. These are non-partisan people. These are technocrats and people should not seek to politicise those offices. The day you politicise them and bring in the different politics to the civil service it means you then have a civil service which is run by partisan individuals and we can’t afford that. We need to be saying who are the professionally suitable people who will provide competent technocratic administrative support and advice to the government. That is their role and the rush to want to politicise the civil service, some of us do not agree with. Yes the rush must be to streamline – to say are the people who are there competent to do the job? If they’re not; where are the competent people, how can we bring them in and not the rush to talk about it as if it’s a matter of life and death in relation to the politicisation of the civil service. That’s not what we should do. Gonda: What about the issue of Roy Bennett’s appointment? All Ministers and Deputy Ministers have been sworn into government except Roy Bennett. What’s your understanding of his situation? Ncube: This is a matter that has not been referred to JOMIC. I am not privy to what the difficulties or the issues are in respect of swearing in Mr Roy Bennett, who has been nominated as Deputy Minister of Agriculture. The principals have not said to us any difficulties that they might have in this regard. Therefore it would be inappropriate and improper for me to speculate on the matter. We have not received any communication as JOMIC or indeed in any other capacity as to whether there is in fact a difficulty and what the nature of that difficulty is. Gonda: Minister Sam Sipepo Nkomo said Mugabe actually told the Deputy Prime Minister Arthur Mutambara that he won’t swear in Roy Bennett and Minister Nkomo actually said the MDC officials were told this by Professor Mutambara. So are you saying you don’t know anything about this? Ncube: As I’m saying, I’m not privy to that communication. None of the principals, not President Mugabe, not Prime Minister Tsvangirai, not Deputy Prime Minister Mutambara has communicated that to me or to JOMIC as an institution and I cannot therefore, I can neither confirm nor really comment on what Minister Nkomo has said because I have no similar communication. Gonda: Now the Minister also said the Agreement is not being adhered to and he mentioned some of the examples that we are talking about but what he also said was that SADC and the African Union should be brought back. Do you agree with this and also, so far do you think the Agreement is working? Ncube: Well it is not for me to comment on the opinion of fellow cabinet members, what I can say is that we have an agreed procedure. If there’s a matter of dispute, if there’s a matter of infringement, if there’s a matter in which any of the parties are unhappy, you refer it to JOMIC for resolution. If JOMIC fails to resolve it and the parties in JOMIC say we have failed, the matter is referred to the principals, can you find a solution. If the principals fail to find a solution, the Agreement says you can then refer the matter to the facilitator and to SADC as guarantors of the Agreement, so that SADC can then help us find a solution. And all the three parties know that procedure and none of them have yet invoked it in respect of any matter and if it does come to that stage then I am sure it will be referred to SADC. JOMIC and the principals must first come to a determination that we are unable to resolve this matter, one or other of the parties are still unhappy and then we refer to SADC. So I do not think it is useful for any of us as Cabinet Ministers and members of the parties to comment willy nilly on these matters. We must allow the processes that we agreed to, to take their course. Gonda: That was Professor Welshman Ncube, co-chair of JOMIC. We will bring you Part Two with the Minister at a later stage where he will tell us among other issues what measures he is taking to ensure that his Industry and Commerce Ministry becomes viable, how he is dealing with the chaos at Beitbridge border post and the duty which is holding up investment. And also how he is dealing with corruption in his ministry, especially at Zisco Steel? Feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com | |
They've got no natural reflex to evacuate, to protect their
possessions, to find higher ground 
